documents produced during the second temple period included writings such as 1 enoch, jubilees, and sirach.
apostle paul lived during the very late stage of that period.the first century jews, including those who accepted jesus as the promised messiah, regarded these writings very highly.this list provides the locations in the new testament documents that either cite or allude to these second temple writings.. http://www.jwstudies.com/nt_citation_and_allusions_to_apocrypha.pdf .
Documents produced during the Second Temple Period included writings such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, and Sirach. Apostle Paul lived during the very late stage of that Period.
The first century Jews, including those who accepted Jesus as the Promised Messiah, regarded these writings very highly.
This list provides the locations in the New Testament documents that either cite or allude to these Second Temple writings.
http://www.jwstudies.com/NT_Citation_and_Allusions_to_Apocrypha.pdf
wikipedia article on jehovah's witnesses:satanjehovah's witnesses believe that satan was originally a perfect angel who developed feelings of self-importance and craved worship.
satan influenced adam and eve to disobey god, and humanity subsequently became participants in a challenge involving the competing claims of jehovah and satan to universal sovereignty.
other angels who sided with satan became demons.jehovah's witnesses teach that satan and his demons were cast down to earth from heaven after october 1, 1914, at which point the end times began.
Satan was invented when the 6th century BCE Monotheists gained ascendancy.
Before then, by far the largest number of people accepted the existence of several gods. The monotheists are responsible for the Hebrew Bible that we read today, and they freely acknowledge that the people worshipped several Gods, including theirs (Baal, Asherah, etc.)
When the monotheists came to power, they ran into the problem of the existence of "badness". Previously, the people had any number of gods who could be blamed, so now they had to invent a scenario that put YHWH at arm's length from "badness". Check the www for the word: Theodicy
Gradually, this "son of God", Satan, became personified in writings such as 1 Enoch and Jubilees.
I take issue with any idea that Satan was in the Garden of Eden story. That idea was invented in the 2nd century CE, after the writing of the Scriptures.
When the Septuagint was written in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE, they imported the Greek word Diabolos (meaning: Devil).
Satan was never known in the Scriptures as "Lucifer". That word means the planet Venus, the Bright Morning Star (the name given to Jesus in the Book of Revelation).
Doug
many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were scripture.
there has never been unanimous agreement, including today.
only the church of rome took a vote on the canon.
Hi doubtful,
I posed the same situation to a JW at a cart on Monday.
He trotted out 2 Timothy 3:16 and I asked him, "When was 2 Timothy written and when was any Canon first recognised?"
I pointed out that 2 Timothy was written centuries before any Bible, to which he responded that it was talking about "Scriptures". So I asked him: "Who determined what was Scripture?"
He responded with: "That's a good question".
It is pure circular reasoning to say that whatever the Bible says is true because the writers said it was true.
Doug
many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were scripture.
there has never been unanimous agreement, including today.
only the church of rome took a vote on the canon.
Many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were Scripture. There has never been unanimous agreement, including today. Only the Church of Rome took a vote on the Canon. Protestants rely on Tradition.
The lists of books that today are considered to be Scripture vary between Protestant, Roman Catholic and the various iterations of the Orthodox communities.
http://www.jwstudies.com/The_people_who_decided_the_Scriptures.pdf
a short while ago, jw83 made a request in support of her australian research.. i have now located my list of the dates of articles in the "smith's weekly" in the state library of victoria, melbourne in its constant attack on the watchtower's australian head office:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/smith_s_weekly_references.pdf .
doug.
A short while ago, JW83 made a request in support of her Australian research.
I have now located my list of the dates of articles in the "Smith's Weekly" in the State Library of Victoria, Melbourne in its constant attack on the Watchtower's Australian head office:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Smith_s_Weekly_references.pdf
Doug
when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.
so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .
Phizzy,
I highly recommend the book "Crucible of Faith" by Philip Jenkins. It discusses the sources of Christianity and of that other Abrahamic religion, Islam. This is the book's publicity:
Doug
================
In “Crucible of Faith: The ancient revolution that made our modern religious world”, Philip Jenkins describes how the Judeo-Christian tradition we know today was born between 250–50 BC, during the turbulent “Crucible Era”—a time when Jews grappled with overwhelming forces of Hellenization and globalization. As a result, Judaism produced new religious ideas that responded to a changing world.
The revolutionary politics of the 160s BC created an apocalyptic world-view where earthly struggles reveal a cosmic significance, a universe dominated by angels and demons. By the time of the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, concepts that might once have seemed bizarre became normalized—and thus passed on to Christianity and later Islam.
when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.
so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .
Phizzy,
Thank you for pointing me in the next direction.
Where indeed did these "NT" writers get their material and ideas? I bow to superior minds who posit a source they name "Q", but there is enough speculation without resorting to that.
What were those writers' sources? They were writing in detail of events that took place decades earlier -- often contradicting one another -- or in the case of apocalypses, they write in detail of future events.
I do not think these ideas came to the NT writers "out of the blue". I have material that indicates the sources they used, and which were part of contemporary Judaism's DNA, is to be found in the books of the Second Temple Period, particularly 1 Enoch, Jubilees and the DSS. The NT writers quote from and allude extensively to those writings.
One interesting book is: "Reading Romans in Context: Paul and Second Temple Judaism", Ben Blackwell (etc.) There is more that needs to be investigated.
I wonder if it matters whether a saying attributed to Jesus is "true" or not. I think that what matters is to ask: What was the writer saying to his/their immediate community, and the reason? What was going on at the time in that community at the time they were writing?
This not unreasonable. Read any modern-day polemic and it is pitched at a modern-day community. These modern-day polemics are not being written to some community living in 2000 years time.
Doug
when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.
so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .
You are very kind, Phizzy.
I never insist that people agree with me. I only insist that people think, and that they think for themselves.
One thing I did not pursue is the matter of who would have provided the Matthew writers such detail, especially as they lived half a century after the supposed event.
Regards,
Doug
when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.
so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.
http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .
Hi,
When I started investigating "The Temptations" at Matthew chapter 4, I had no idea that I would develop the ideas contained in my Study Paper. So it cannot honestly be said that I set out to prove the conclusions I arrived at.
It is available at:
http://www.jwstudies.com/THE_DEVIL_WHO_TESTED_JESUS.pdf
Doug
why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?
such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.
surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.
Actually, things like hospitals, etc., came from Islam. They were miles ahead, as well as with astronomy, architecture, and mathematics, while the superstitious Christians were dunking women in the pond to see if they would drown, while the church was selling Indulgences, while Luther and Calvin were urging and praising the authorities for burning and torturing their religious opponents.
You are correct in admitting your ideas are only based on faith, I call that superstition and speculation.
Why would anyone think that a Bible is "The Word of God"? And which of the Bibles is meant? Especially as no one knows what was originally written.
Doug
